Chuck  Harder:
My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run  down
who he  is and where he's from for a number of reasons,
some of them for his own protection.   George, are  you
there. . . . 

George Knapp:
Hello Chuck.

Chuck  Harder:
Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right. . . .

George KNAPP:
That's right.

Chuck  Harder:
George, what do you do for a living?

George Knapp:
I'm  a  journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the  CBS 
affiliate here.

Chuck  Harder:
So you are a TV newsman?

George Knapp:
Right.

Chuck  Harder:
And  you  work  for Channel  8, KLAS-TV  in Las  Vegas,
Nevada?

George Knapp:
Right.

Chuck  Harder:
I  understand  that  you  have  come  upon  some   very  
interesting information  and you've  done some  special
reports. Could you  tell us about it?

George Knapp:
Well  we  just  finished a  nine-part  series  --  what  
may  be  the longest series  that's ever  been done  on
this subject dealing with UFOs. Our  research  actually
started about two and a half years ago,  a fellow named
John Lear, the son of the guy  who invented  the   Lear
Jet brought some of this information to our  attention. 
In May of this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow
who claims to  have worked  at a secret base designated
S-4... on a top-secret  Nevada test  site...the  fellow
said that he  worked on   flying   saucers,  that   the
technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed   him
live    in  silhouette   in  May,   the  response   was
incredible.... We  got response  from  Japan, parts  of
that interview  aired on   radio   in  Europe, and  six
different European countries; so we  decided with  this
much  interest  we might  want to  take a  look at  the
subject in more depth.

We  started doing that and the first thing we found out
is  that  really  UFOs   have   not been  given a  fair
shake  by  science,  by  government,   by religion  and
especially by journalism.   Millions of   people   have
seen UFOs, millions more believe.  I  think  the latest 
Gallop      poll   shows   about   70   percent      of
college-educated  Americans     believe  that   there's
something to it, but  because  of  the tabloid  aspects
. . . 'The Girl Who Gives  Birth to  52 UFO  Babies' --  
kind  of things in the National Enquirer,  people  have 
shied away  from  it . . . serious   people have  shied 
away.   Scientists, although  they might be  interested
in searching  the universe   for  radio signals  really
don't want to look in their own back yard -- they can't
get grants. People would laugh at them.  Journalism  --
the coverage is  generally  condescending  and  quirky,  
especially by  the networks, as in the coverage of this
UFO that  supposedly landed in the USSR, people  making
fun of it. So, we figured  out that millions of  people
want  to  know  as  Roy Neary,  the guy  in the  'Close
Encounters'  movie  said,  'What's  going  on?'   So we  
started investigating it.  The focal point of the story
being this fellow who  said he worked at S-4.  We broke
his identity  last  Friday. His name is  Bob Lazar,  he
is   a  former  scientist  who  worked  at  Los  Alamos  
National  Labs,   he  is a physicist.  We  did  a   lot  
of checking on him and found interestingly enough  that
his life   was disappearing   around   him.   In  other
words we called  Los  Alamos  Labs and  they said  they
never heard of him.  We called MIT  where he   says  he
went to school and they had never heard of  him.     We
called    for    his   Birth  records   and  they   had
disappeared, as  if someone  was  trying to make him  a
non-person.    We   did however  confirm   some of  the
information that he had given us, we   found  newspaper
articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had  indeed
worked  there. We found an old telephone book from  the
lab  with  his name  in it,  which gave  him a  certain
amount of credibility in our eyes.  The story he  tells
is an incredible one.   He was  hired to  work at  this
area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up to  a
place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows
to S-4.    The  base  is  built almost to look like its  
part  of  the desert  with  sand covered hanger  doors,
he goes  inside  and  he starts reading these  briefing
papers dealing with UFOs!  Pictures of   UFOs   on  the
walls, pictures of aliens,  autopsy reports   on  alien
bodies  .  . .  things of  this nature  -- he's  pretty
amazed.  Then he sees  the discs.   He  says there  are
nine of  the discs  up there,  they are  powered by  an
anti-matter    reactor   which    produces   its    own
gravitational  field  technology  that  does not  exist  
on  this planet,  and the interesting thing, he thought
for  a  while that  perhaps   it was  just an  advanced
secret scientific   project   that our  government   is
pursuing until he looked inside  one  of  the discs and
noticed the small furniture. All the chairs were  built
like    for children,  and then  things started  coming
together  for him.  Are you with me Chuck ?

Chuck  Harder:
I'm listening.

George Knapp:
Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me  to go  in
on. . . . 

Chuck  Harder:
Oh I think you ought to keep going.

George Knapp:
Well,  this  fellow was up there for only a few months.  
And it was a  rough place for him to work. The security
was so hard and  he was   being harassed  at home,  his
phones being tapped. Plus  he's  on to  what he  thinks
are the secrets of the universe  . .  . he   starts  to
tell other people about it, confide with close friends.

Chuck  Harder:
Umm.....

George Knapp:
He  had  the  date  of  a couple of tests and  on   two  
consecutive  weekends  he  took   people   up  into the  
desert  outside  of  the boundaries  of  area S-4,  and
they video taped the  saucers . . . what  looks like  a
saucer coming over the mountains!

Chuck  Harder:
Wow.

George Knapp:
We showed that video as well...

Chuck  Harder:
Uh-huh.

George Knapp:
Five different people that we interviewed that had gone
up    there  confirmed  the  same  story.  We also  had
confirmation of other bits of  his  story   from  other
people,  a  former   security   guard   who worked   up  
there, who said he had seen the   saucers,   a   former
technician...

Chuck  Harder:
By  the  way,   excuse me,  I have  some letters   from  
some  people postmarked from  that area, one inside  of
a base,  who  tells   me  what  you're saying  is true.  
Keep going.

George Knapp:
Ah,  we  also found  a Nellis  Airman who  had been  on
radar duty   at  Nellis   air-base which  is here  just
south of the area  that  this fellow is talking  about.
He reported numerous times seeing...

Chuck  Harder:
George,  excuse me . . . let me do the  half hour  news
break,  I  want you to tell your story, I want  America
to hear it . . . please  stand by.

[SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half-hour news]

Chuck  Harder:
How many reports did you do, George?

George Knapp:
We did nine total in this series.

Chuck  Harder:
OK, now at the time we went to  news on  the half  hour
you told  me that a scientist named Bob Lazar.

George Knapp:
Right.

Chuck  Harder:
OK,   came  to   you   and  came  to the   public   and  
apparently   was concerned  for his  safety because  he
wanted to tell America or get news out that - yes,  the
Federal Government has nine saucers, and  yes they  are
near. It's near Nellis, is it not?

George Knapp:
Yes.

Chuck  Harder:
Cause  I  have letters from  people who are at  Nellis. 
Some  of which  don't  want to give  their name,   some
of which  gave  their name, I have the postmarks.  Tell
us now if you would, start  the  story   from the  fact
that the gentleman has revealed that  there are nine of
these things.  We're listening and so is America.

George Knapp:
Well,   we  wanted  to  try to confirm as much  of  his 
story  as possible from other sources of course, so  we
started looking  for other   people   who   might  have
knowledge of what's  going  on   up there  . .  . as  I
mentioned, I found a former  security guard  who   said
that  he  had  seen  the  saucers up  there,   I  found 
a former technician who said that he had walked into  a
room  inadvertently and saw one under a tarp, we  found
a Nellis airman who had worked in  radar  and said that
basically he and his  fellow   airman   has seen  these
things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up  to
7,000  miles  per  hour  on radar  . .  . these  things
would stop  on  a dime,  so  the  guy knew that this is
not your  average  airplane that's doing this.  We also
interviewed  the other  people who went with  Lazar  up  
on    two consecutive  weeks,   they   test   them   on
Wednesdays for some reason,   and videotaped the tests, 
saw  these  things  flying  over   the  mountains   and
confirmed his story as well.

We put these questions to the Navy, who  Lazar says  he
worked    for  up    there    --   we  made Freedom  of
Information  Act  requests  for  information about  the
various specific programs he mentioned,  of course  the
Navy denied having any information on   the   programs.
Of  course,  in those requests we also asked  for other  
information about   UFOs,  stuff the  Navy has  already
released and they   denied having  that information  as
well -- so I don't  put a  lot of   faith  in the  FOIA
requests.

Chuck  Harder:
In  other  words,   what you're saying is   that   your  
organization which  is KLAS-TV  in Las Vegas, plus many
other  UFO  research groups  have  uncovered  many  UFO
documents  that  the   government says,  'Yeah, we  got
them and yeah it's true' . . . but then when   you  ask
them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'

George Knapp:
Exactly . . . that's exactly correct!

Chuck  Harder:
I  understand  from  MUFON and  many other groups  that  
there  are somewhere from   four   to  seven   thousand  
documents  that  prove that. Yes  these  things  exist,
copies of the documents  are  in private   hands,  then
you go and ask the government and they  say, 'Well, er,
no we don't remember...'

George Knapp:
The  government says that they have done  these studies 
that    say that   UFOs   are  no  threat  to  national  
security,  they're   either psychological  aberrations,
which means that people are nuts  when  they see  them,
that's  what  they  feed the  public, but  behind   the
scenes  they  are  very concerned  about  the  national
security  implications  of  UFOs that  land at  nuclear
missile  bases  and  can't  be caught,  things of  that
nature.    So the government  from  what I've  read  is  
very  concerned  about  the   phenomena   and   doesn't
really  understand  it.    The government on the  other 
hand  has outright lied concerning what information  it
does have.   The  CIA for   example  says  it   doesn't  
collect  any   information on UFOs. Well  that's   just
patently not true.  We  have  documents from  the  CIA,
a lot  of it  is blacked  out,   which   mentions   UFO
studies    by    the    CIA,   UFO  research,   CIA-UFO  
experts,    agency  personnel  who  are monitoring  the
phenomenon,  so  they have  lied to  us all  along.   I
didn't expect to get any confirmation   regarding  what
Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.

Chuck  Harder:
Before  we  went  to the half-hour break you said  that
when  he  looked  inside  one of these discs there were 
little  furniture, give me some information.

George Knapp:
Well   he   feels that  they were  bringing him  along,
giving  him  a  piece   at   a time.   He  would see  a
saucer one day,  the   next   he would  see the  hanger
doors open and see all nine of  them. After that he got
to see the inside of the thing.  He also got  to see  a
demonstration  of  it.     He  was told to  stand  back  
and  watch this, and  the thing lights up real  bright.
I guess  the  power that's   produced   is  incredible,
you need  to  produce  your  own  gravitational   field  
and it raised up, he wasn't  sure  who  was flying   it
or was it remotely or what.  He watched it   raise  up,
did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down.   Part  of
the  reason he came forward, not to  spill the  secrets
of the universe or  the  government,   but because  the
research that's being done up  there  is being  handled
in a clumsy fashion.    If they have  had these  for as  
long as forty years, which  is what  he believes,  they
haven't come  to  far  in  trying  to  understand them.  
Some of the discs  he said  he saw up there were  being
taken apart, kind of  a  reverse  archaeology   process
to figure out how they worked.     Some of the research  
going on up there is aimed at trying to  duplicate  the
things    that    these  machines  can  do using  earth
technologies  and earth  materials and he says it  just
can't be done.   The key  to the flying  of the  things
is something he calls 'Element 115' . . .  it does  not
exist  on  our  periodic  charts,    he  believes  that
wherever  it  came  from  its  a  naturally   occurring
element,  he says we  have 500  pounds of this stuff up
there,    just  a  little  tiny sliver  of it  produces
incredible amounts of power.   Its the '115'  that   we
will  not be able to duplicate so he thinks that one of
the  reasons that he came forward is because scientists
all over the world are working,  putting  their  energy
into trying to master the secrets of  gravity  and  the
secrets of anti-matter technology  and  here we've  got
it up there and they're not doing a very good job  with
it  --  this little batch of scientists  hidden out  in
the  desert are trying to figure it out and not doing a
very good job.

Chuck  Harder:
But this  is kind  of  common  with  the  United States  
government. I read a tremendous amount  of material.  I
read  a tremendous  amount of   material.  I read  five
newspapers a day and I'll  find  where one group in one
part of the country is  working  on a project  and I'll  
get a  clipping  where another group is working  on the  
same project, I've contacted them and  they don't  know
of each other!

George Knapp:
Yeah,    Yeah   --   that's   exactly    right.      He     
said    the compartmentalization   up   there was  very
severe as well  so  that nobody had the full picture --
I guess so nobody could spill  the beans as he has been
trying to do.

Chuck  Harder:
All right,  what does he  feel the  public should  know
and what  does he feel should be done?

George Knapp:
Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted  to
do was  to save  his  own life.  He started having some
problems   when   it  became obvious  to his  employers
that he was telling someone  else about this.

Chuck  Harder:
We're talking about Bob Lazar now?

George Knapp:
Bob Lazar . . . his phone being tapped, people visiting
him,  calling him   up with  a single  word message  --
DEAD  --  then  they hang   up!  He   tried to  arrange
meetings with his former supervisor and   the  meetings
didn't come off,  he says somebody took a  shot at  him
on the freeway.   Obviously  he realizes  that if  they
really  wanted  to  kill   him,   they could.     Maybe
perhaps they were  just trying   to  shut him  up.   He
feels that what is going on up there is a crime against
the  entire   scientific  community . . . not  only the  
American people because we don't know  what's going  on
and  we  haven't  been told  alien   technology exists,  
but also against the  scientific community.   So,  what
else can I tell ya?

Chuck  Harder:
What does he say about the aliens?

George Knapp:
He's  reluctant  to talk about that, apparently he did 
see  some aliens up there.

Chuck  Harder:
Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?

George Knapp:
Yeah,  he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and
I  don't  think  I should go much further on that . . .
part of the  discussion until  I can talk  to him,  but
he has indications that  there  are aliens up there, at
least one.

Chuck  Harder:
Live?

George Knapp:
Yeah,  it's pretty wild, I  know and  I didn't  include
that in  our reports   because I  couldn't confirm  any
thing of that  nature,  I couldn't find anyone else who
had seen them up there so. . . . 

Chuck  Harder:
What did they look like?

George Knapp:
Your   classic   Grey  . .  . the   little   big-headed  
almond-eyed grey-skinned being . . . the  same ones  in
the  classic  descriptions of  the UFO literature . . .
he's  kind  of  squeamish  talking  about it  as   well
because it sounds so crazy.


Chuck  Harder:
I    don't    think  it's crazy  at all,  there was  an
article,  let  me digress for  a moment,  there was  an
article yesterday on the front page of The Wall  Street
Journal where the FDA that  stopped all  of the  grapes
from Chile last March . . . apparently  somebody  laced  
two of  the  grapes  with cyanide  a  couple  of  hours  
before  the FDA, stumbled  on them and it was an inside
job  apparently    while    the  grapes  were  in   the
inspection station . . . and it was not  done   on  the
way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of  two
little  grapes  that  almost  bankrupted the country of 
Chile!   If  two little grapes . . . and  such a  story
hits the front page of The  Wall Street  Journal  about
the  questions  about  the    truthfulness    and  what
happened with the FDA, what about this . . . how  would
this ever get out if they would cover up a story  about
TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!

George Knapp:
Well,  I tell you we  asked the  question, the  obvious
question, if this is true;  how can the government keep
this a secret all this time?   A  story this big -- the
government  leaks  like a  sieve on  other things,  how
could the cover-up exist?

Chuck  Harder:
Oh, I'll tell you.

George Knapp:
To  which Lazar responds, this is the easiest . . . and
he asked  the question to his superiors up there,  it's
the  easiest  thing  in  the world   to  keep a  secret
because if it does come out, little   bits and  pieces,
who's going to believe it?

Chuck  Harder:
Exactly . . . let me, you remember  the Condon  Report,
do you not?

George Knapp:
Yes.

Chuck  Harder:
For  those  who  are listening,   I   got   into   this  
investigation because I kept getting  letters from  our
listeners who  said, Chuck   you  ought to  investigate
this . . . we've investigated many things in the   past
such as the GM Diesel cover-up,   we're  working on   a  
pay phone  cover-up, we've done things with Ralph Nader
and   so  on.    So  we  started buying  the books  and
contacting UFO  organizations. I then found that  there
was  a  guy named Phil Klass who was always there . . .
somehow  he   as   always  there   and  he  said   that  
everything was bunk!  And of course, he  works for  the
Aviation  Week  magazine  which  is  of  course is  the
mouthpiece  for  the Military/Industrial  complex   and
they certainly  wouldn't want  this technology   to  be
out!    I   was  also  amazed  when  I saw  the stealth  
bomber  (tests) live  on  CNN one Saturday and a  small
plane  landed  at   the   same place,  (runway) do  you
remember that?

George Knapp:
Yes.

Chuck  Harder:
My    question  is:    If  the  Stealth  Bomber was  so
super-secret,  how could a  man and  his children  land
their  little tiny  plane on   the  same   runway at  a
super-secret  Air  Force  base?    How could  he   have
pierced the radar and fighter jets  and so  forth?   My
feeling was, probably the Stealth  Bomber was  obsolete
and nobody was watching!

George Knapp:
Yeah,    I'd  have  to  agree with you,   because   the  
security  up there . . . the only thing that comes  out
of that place is what  they want out of it.

Chuck  Harder:
So  what  your  talking  about then,  since the  Condon
Committee, Phil Klass  and all the of the  spokespeople
who  are  supposed   to   know everything,   what  your
saying is the ridicule  factor . . . if  Billy Bob sees
a  flying  saucer and even has a photo of it  and takes  
it to the paper, everybody laughs at him!

George Knapp:
There    are    actual  documents  the  government  has  
released  (Under Freedom  of Information Act) that show
it has an  active  program that  started   back in  the
fifties . . . the  CIA  even used  the  term DEBUNKING,  
there  were discussions about using  Walt   Disney   to
produce  cartoons  that  made  fun of  people who   had  
seen  flying saucers . . . they  were   going to  bring
Arthur Godfrey in  as  their spokesperson.   Phil Klass
as you mentioned, he's explained  away  UFO   sightings
seen  by thousands  of people  as   the   constellation
ORION,  when  you  can only  see ORION  from the  other
side  of  the planet.

Chuck  Harder:
Uh huh.

George Knapp:
He  uses things like  Ball Lightning,  plasma balls  to
explain  the sightings where plasma balls only last for
a few seconds and  the examples  that he  is trying  to
explain occur in  cloudless  skies where  there  is  no
lightning around.   You mention   the   Condon  report,
that's a perfect example of  the kinds  of things  that
the government  has done in the past, they commission a
study,   it's supposed  to be  THE STUDY,  but the  guy
they hire to run the thing, Edward Condon had before he
even  started, that  there was   nothing  to UFOs,  the
government should get out of it,  and he  also said  at
one  point  that  the  authors of  UFO books  should be  
HORSEWHIPPED!

One  of  the  explanations  that came from  the  Condon 
Committee witnessed  by  several people, they described
it  as,  a  natural phenomena so rare that it has never
been seen before or since!  I don't think this kind  of
a thing is an accident!

Chuck  Harder:
OK,  the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report  (of a 
UFO)  and from what I  have heard  there are  different
kinds of aliens,  some have been coming here for  years
and years and it's nothing new.

George Knapp:
Right.

Chuck  Harder:
Why  is  it  in  some  parts  of  the world  [now] they  
report  other  types of  humanoids and  other types  of
vehicles.  I  happen  to  have   beautiful  photos   of
some,  and as I told you  off-the-air,  we're going  to
be releasing them in our upcoming magazine  if  someone
doesn't stick a dagger through my heart.

George Knapp:
You're  talking about  the Billy  Meier case,   if  you
want to touch on that, we also  did some  investigation
on that.

Chuck  Harder:
OK, go ahead.

George Knapp:
Billy Meier,  I've always been intrigued by that,   and
wanted  to check  them   out.    Its  been pretty  much
written-off by  the   UFO community   but  when we  put
questions to them about the  case   they can't  explain
exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to Lee
Elders  one  of  the  lead investigators  on the  Billy
Meier  case  and  started  going  over  the   evidence.   
The    photos    had    been analyzed   by  independent
experts,    the  film   footage   and  video  had  been  
analyzed,    the  metal  sample had  been confirmed  as
something we  don't have -- technology  of cold  fusion
was used  to  produce this metal,    the landing sites,  
the strange circular patterns in the  grass  that   are
now  only  gaining  attention in   Britain   and  other
countries,    all of this stuff had never been   pretty  
much discounted  by  the  UFO community because  Elders
and  Wendelle  Stevens   had   gone  outside   of   the
UFO  community   to   get   confirmation.     The   UFO  
people were kept out of it, the   Billy Meier   case  I
think exemplifies the biggest weakness  in  UFOLOGY and
that's  the  jealousy that  permeates  the  field . . .
everybody wants  to be the only one with the real story
of  UFOs,  so  they kind  of  written this guy off only
because he  didn't  cooperate with them.


Chuck  Harder:
We  have been able to get some photos from a source who
has some negatives that were  just  recently  located--
some  from  ten   feet  away,   I  used  to  be in  the
motion picture business.   If  they  are  models   they  
cost thousands of dollars,  and  I doubt  if  a  simple
Swiss farmer could have done it.

George Knapp:
I'd agree with ya,   the  reason we  got interested  in
Billy  Meier, it  goes back to Lazar,  was because  Bob
Lazar says,  the  saucer that  he  saw fly,  he  dubbed
it the sport model,  was  the  same saucer in the Meier
photos, exactly the same.

Chuck  Harder:
The new ones or the old ones?

George Knapp:
The new one.

Chuck  Harder:
OK, that's the one we've got.

George Knapp:
Going  back to the things he saw  (Lazar) at  S-4,   he
saw the nine saucers,  he said  all nine  of them  were
different, like we got the variety  pack,  but  the one
he  saw  fly  was like the one  in  the  Meier   photo.   
(There   are   Three  types   photographed   by   Billy
Meier.) That's  why we decided to check  out the  Meier
part of  the  (UFO) story.

[Commercial break]

Chuck  Harder:
I  hope that Mr.  and Mrs.   America make  note of  the
name  George Knapp: and Bob Lazar so  that if  anything
ever happens to them, you know why.

George Knapp:
Someone  should  tell  us what's going on . . . TV  and
movies have  conditioned us . . . we  won't panic . . .
Jimmy Carter  when  he  ran   for  President   promised
that if he was elected that he vowed to   open all  the
UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to  him asking  why
and he  didn't respond.     We want  the government  to
come    clean.    If  that     takes  a   Congressional
Investigation . . .  that's  something  that should  be
looked at.  If it is launched we have to make sure that
there  are no CIA,   contractors and the like  involved 
otherwise people aren't  going to believe it.     We've
seen enough of  this whitewash stuff  over  the  years.  
If there's nothing to the story, then open up the files
and prove it to us!

Chuck  Harder:
OK,  have the government let the press into these areas
and don't first clean them out.